Category: Let's talk
Hi all. My college has an attendance policy, and if students don't abide by it, then it is reflected in their overall grade. Many colleges, however, do not have any attendance policy, and if a student misses a class, the professor doesn't count the student absent and subtract points from the student's grade. Do you think it is right for colleges to have an attendance policy in the first place, since students are paying to attend?
Thanks.
Yes. I think attendance policies are a good idea, if for no other reason than if you don't show up for a job, you get fired. I work for a pizza place in a call centre, and the attendance - particularly of young college-age employees - is atrocious. If schools ahve consequences for lack of attendance, even if lowered grades, it at least shows that there are consequences. Besides, most of the people who don't show are are likely the ones that have mommy and daddy footing the bills anyway.
Sorry, but I feel VERY strongly about this.
Kate
I agree that if you don't show up for classes, especially for exams, your grades should definitely suffer. It shouldn't matter whether you are on scholarship, have parents paying the bills, or are working to pay your own way. If you want a degree, then attend classes and try to get the best grades you can.
Completely agree. My college doesn't have a attendance policy. They leave it at the disgression of the professors and so many people take advantage of it. I honestly was one of those during my Freshmann year. I skipped a 8 AM class I had a lot last semester which probably didn't help the grade. It is annoying dealing with the obnoxious kids that just come to class to socialize every once in a while when you are trying to pay attention to what is going on.
I see numerous benefits of colleges having attendance policies. however, having said policies is completely pointless, if they aren't strictly reinforced.
reinforcement is more than half the battle, in my opinion.
My opinion regarding attendance policies at the university level is that since the student is paying to attend, there shouldn't be one in place. It doesn't really make sense to me. I can see not showing up for an exam, but I did.
Of course there should be an attendence policy. What kind of clown institution doesn't have an attendence policy. College should be a segway from young adulthood to maturity and the real world. If college institutions instate clown-like policies or no policies at all, thy're party schools rather than serious secondary schools, and they should be treated as such.
I might be opening up another can of worms here, but I feel this is one of the main reasons why education in America is looked down upon by other nations. I've got to look up more statistics and not go off of what people say on this matter, but from what I've been told we have the most people educated in the world. But at the same time, at least from my opinion and from what I have been told by other people in other nations, our education is easy compared to the programs that exist in other nations and countries. And that is why so many people are "educated" as we call it. More people go to college here than ever before not only because society has this notion that is hammered in to us that we will be more successful if we have a degree to add to our resumee, but also because secondary education is easier to do here. This is an issue I've been juggling for some time and I need to learn more about. I'm all for people getting an education, but I don't believe in giving freebees away. I believe having a harsher attendance policy will force people to make up their minds as to whether or not they belong in school. Those who work and pay taxes will be somewhat more assured that their money is going towards resources that will benefit a serious student who will make use of them. Now, I want to make sure I'm not saying this is a resolution to all problems in college because it's not, but I see it as something important that should be taken more seriously.
I have two opinions. If your college/university has a set number of seats in a class, there should be an attendance policy. This is how my school is organized. If there is an unlimited amount of seats in the class, like a lecture class, I see no reason for their to be an attendance policy. That would require the professor to take a roll of sometimes hundreds of students in one lecture hall. That is impractical to say the very least.
Sometimes I wish there were not an attendance policy. Many times I could have taken the tests, past the class, and not attended any lecture. Its the benefit of reading.
I guess I'm the odd one here: I think college shouldn't be an adult babysitting service. I had some professors who had attendance policies and most who didn't. It was the students job to learn the material. Having policies or helicopter parents doesn't teach responsibility, it teaches how to be a sheeple and a follower. Being responsible teaches responsibility, doing what you need to, without someone watching you.
I have taken static for this by parents of the helicopter variety from my own generation, but I feel strongly about this.
I and friends skipped class, paid the price and learned. We didn't "get in trouble," we just had to catch up. And we were all working, no mommy and daddy anything.
If you're in college, you're getting a bit big to need rules about going to class. Now's the time you make mistakes and learn, and when we parents and teachers stop breathing down your neck and let you learn a little. The only adult people being micromanaged are in prison.
When I was studying in Japan, they said that while Japanese students had 100 percent attendance, the Americans who were there were more active participants. They were divided on that issue.
I still stand behind what I said: you don't learn responsibility by being told what to do and when to do it. Though Cody makes sense here also. I went to a large, inner-city commuter university. An attendance policy would just be more administrative headache for professors who are already overworked and only have a couple hours a week for helping students.
Leave it to the helicopter parents of my own generation to think up something dumb, illogical and administrative, to saddle professors with extra work instead of helping students, and then call it responsibility.
College is also not always a miniature representation of the real world that many people like to make it out to be. I know lots of people who skipped class for one reason or another and wouldn't dream of doing so at their job. A lot of people completely blow off class but when it comes down to staying at a job where the alternative is getting fired and not being able to provide for a family, they'll step up to the plate without a moment's hesitation. Perhaps that's an argument for not relying on mom, dad or a scholarship committee to pay tuition but I think it's fair to say a lot of people go to school to better themselves, whereas they work to take care and provide for themselves and often others. When that responsibility is on your shoulder, you won't skip work because you feel like it, even if you used to skip class as a drunken undergrad. You can be an awful student but a hardworking, dedicated employee. I sometimes skip going to the gym but I don't wake up and blow off work. This stuff isn't always comparable.
I agree. And sometimes we skipped one lecture in order to meet with the professor of a more difficult class.
to elaborate further on what I said previously, I feel that reinforcement of an existing attendance policy is a good way to encourage responsibility. either the students will show up, or they won't.
Cody brought up a good point, though, about only having attendance policies if the size of the lexure hall permits.
okay, so if having a degree is part of a job requirement, it should mean something
I'd rather hire someone from a college that has an attendence policy that is reflected in the transcript than one that doesn't
I had at least one class where I rarely went-it was an 8AM class during a period where I was depressed and couldn't sleep
I showed up for tests and when papers were due
I had a 97 or 98 in the class on tests/papers alone with only going to class maybe five or six times after the first few weeks
when grades came out, I had a C. I was pissed because clearly the prof had nothing to add that wasn't in the book (which I read).
I don't think attendence (or lack thereof) should negatively effect grades on that point alone, unless class participation is part of the grade, but I absolutely believe it should be noted in the transcript.
I had a professor that put it like this.
Having an attendance policy is optional here. I am not going to institute one for this class. For one thing, that's just one more thing i've got to keep track of, and for 2, my salary is payed either way... the school is taken care of financially.., and me mandating you guys do something isn't going to make you want to do it, or care, any more than otherwise.
I'm not going to beg and plead for you to come to class, do your work, make an effort, ETC... I'm an educator, not a baby sitter. I'm more than happy to help those who want to learn, but forcing people to participate that don't wish to just makes the experience worse for everyone else. I'll admit that some of this is self interest. the less papers I need to grade means the more free time i'll have. I have no incentive to make you act like an adult, when you couldn't care either way, and I could spend my time teaching students that do. Think of my class as a subscription service. You've signed up for one semester, you know how many times you are entitled to access to this class each week. You have the syllabus, and all the reading material. You know how much you've payed for the opportunity to earn this credit. If you can skip class, do your reading, and only show up to take exams and turn in papers, why waste your time here. Everything i'm teaching is really just a supplement to what your reading, anyway.
I don't think I remember it word for word, but that approach really stuck with me. Its practical, makes the best use of resources, and gives the students the ability to choose how important their time is, relative to the economic costs they've payed. A teacher is responsible for teaching, not for baby sitting, and intervention.
this is really a question of internal vs external motivations. as an adult, you should be over needing someone to stand behind you, and crack that whip.
I guess I asked this question because I had a class that really was pretty boring and pointless to attend. All examinations were open-book and the lectures were most of the time over the book. I didn't understand what I was learning because everything was out of the book. When final grades came out, and I had a B, my attendance negatively impacted it, making it a C. I guess I don't understand why some classes are so pointless, and it seems as if I don't learn enything.
I like that approach. I don't think attendance should reflect on your grade, only what you do at test time.
If you've missed something because you weren't there, that is your loss.
You paid for a service, so you can decide to use it or not.
If the class requires you be there for some reason, then sure.
Reading the responses here helped me come to my thinking. I never thought about not going to class unless I needed to not go. I paid, so I wanted to use the service.
I'm pretty clear on this, myself. Here's how I see it.
I'm not being paid to attend classes. In fact, I've already paid the institution, so unless my absence is depriving someone eele of a slot, the only person suffering is me. I should be given the right to suffer, or not, as I see fit, except in cases as mentioned above where there are a limited number of seats and someone else might have gotten more benefit from lectures than I bothered getting.
By the time one hits college, one should be expected to know the rudiments of time management. If I skip a morning class because I have an assignment due, or because I stayed up the night before finishing something for that self-same class near crunch-time at the end of the semester, I shouldn't be penalized. The farthest I'll go is to say that professors shouldn't pander overmuch to those students who routinely miss a lot of class. It's the student's responsibility to catch up, if catching up is needed.
I understand those of you talking about not showing up to a job being fired, or responsibility appearing to be linked to attendance. However, I'd argue that performance is the important part here. If I have two job candidates, one of whom showed up to hhaf his classes while acing his assignments while the other got much lower grades, I'm probably going to lean in the direction of the candidate with higher grades. I'll probably get a feel for his work ethic in the interview, of course, but at least if he's slacker, I can cut him and go back a pace. Not ideal, but it's a good piece better than judging someone's merit purely because they had the temerity to decide that a particular class wasn't worth attending. Heaven forbid we actually ascribe to students the capacity for time management, eh?
I see SW's point, but again, from both sides, I like my plan.
If you had two potential employees and both had the same grades and one had good attendence and the other lousy, with no other info, who appears to be the better potential employee?
Granted, asking them about the attendence issue will provide more info, but without having attendence notated on the transcript,, they both look the same.
And the point of education isn't about who is paying it's about education AND getting the degree to prove you are qualified for a job. I certainly think a prof should have the class designed so that you CAN'T pass without a certain amount of attendence/participation-that should be the prof's and the university's burden, but not all classes are like that. The class I mentioned in my above post-I didn't notice an attendence policy in the sylabis, but you can be sure I checked for every class after that one and never fell prey to that error in judgment again.
But it really comes down to what James said before. It all comes down to how the professor chooses to do it. We can say how we would do things if we were a professor, but realistically we aren't the ones doing it.
VH, that's just the trouble. Most times, you do not in fact know about attendance records. Personally, if they were part of one's grades somehow, I wouldn't automatically lean toward the person with higher attendance. I'd simply ask the one with lower attendance questions to determine his work ethic. After all, if he knew he wouldn't fail for not showing up, then frowning on him as irresponsible when he knows he'll be fired for not showing up to work is illogical.
Ryan, the question was asked "do you think?" Smile.
On employers and transcripts:
In the couple decades or so of post-college life, I have never given a transcript to an employer, nor have I requested one when hiring people either as a business owner or just a middle manager fulfilling the list of requirements for the HR types.
Just adding to the employer side of this discussion, while continuing to kick it old school on this issue. Despite the embarrassment of a hovercraft designed by my generation, aptly called helicopter parents.
If you have to have a demerit for missing class, you aren't learning anything.
Well, another thing i've noticed, and something many of my college friends will back me up on is this.
Students look at the syllabus. If participation grades are being taken in to account, then the majority do enough to meet the requirement, nd then fuck around on their laptops the rest of the time. Because the teacher is lecturing about stuff they've already read, yet they're being forced to attend the class, while gaining nothing in exchange for the time spent.
Mandating people do X, Y, and Z, isn't actually going to make them care. its just going to make the slackers do just enough to get by,on that one requirement, so they can pass the class with a good grade. Its not that they're bad people, in a lot of cases, its just that the material in many cases is prerequisite bullshit you learned in middle school, that you were then forced to repeat in high school, that your educational institution is making you repeat for the 3rd, 4th or fifth time. Depending on how many other times you've been taught the same things as part of a curriculum in the past. People know when they're being played. People also realize when they're being forced to except padded graduation requirements to make the school more money. At the end of the day, considering class isn't a job, and your attendance doesn't reflect on you, in the long run. As long as you ace your classes, and don't turn to plagiarism or cheating, I don't really care how you accomplish it. If you need to pay attention in a class, then do it. You're an adult. you know the value of your money.
If how ever, you know the material, then do as you see fit.
Yes, true. If I didn't have to go to class, I simply didn't go. The only reason I needed the class was when there was a lecture on something that wasn't in the book, or we had hands on assignments.
I think this is the reason many schools have started offering degrees online, or by mail.
Oh absolutely. A prime example of this happened in my sociology class. A lot of people stopped going after a while because they noticed the professor was just reading the definitions word for word from the book, and elaborating on them with his own examples. I guess they figured there's no point in going if they feel they can do fine and understand the examples by themselves. I could have done that too but I genuinely enjoyed the class. I liked the professor and the environment of the class because it was relaxed and fun, and the dude was hilarious at times. He is the only professor I've had who curses in the class and tries to relate to the students. On top of that he spoke about his college experiences and gave those of us who were there a lot of advice based on his experiences.